In 2014, Immigration Judge John F. Gossart, Jr. retired after more than 30 years on the bench. Judge Gossart sat in Baltimore, where he was well-known and well-liked by attorneys on both side of the aisle (I myself had many cases with him), and his absence is still felt in his Court. Aside from his judicial work, Judge Gossart was (and is) an adjunct professor of law and a legal educator in the wider community. The Asylumist caught up with Judge Gossart to ask about his career, some memorable moments, and his opinions on the issues of the day in Immigration Court:
Asylumist: How did you get to be an IJ? And why was this position interesting for you?
John F. Gossart: I came to immigration law totally by accident. I wanted to work for the Department of Justice, in public sector law, and I applied for a position there. While I was waiting, I hung my own shingle and practiced law out of my house. When DOJ hired me to work at INS (the Immigration and Naturalization Service), I couldn’t even spell immigration.
My first position there was as a Naturalization Attorney. At the time, applicants for naturalization had to file their petitions in U.S. District Court and present two character witnesses. I would interview the petitioner and the witnesses, and make recommendations about whether the applicant should be permitted to naturalize. I remember one Judge in the Eastern District of Virginia—“Roarin” Orin Lewis—who roared at all the attorneys. In those days, homosexuals were ineligible to naturalize because they were considered “sexual deviants.” I argued for a grant of naturalization for an admitted homosexual because he abstained from sexual activities. The petition was denied by Judge Lewis. In another case involving two Russian “swingers” who had admitted to adultery, Judge Lewis called me into his chambers and read me the riot act. The two were consenting adults, but that didn’t matter to Judge Lewis. He denied the case. At the time, the statute held that persons who committed adultery lacked good moral character.
Then, after a stint as Deputy Commissioner of Naturalization, I became a trial attorney for INS. Eight years later, I had the opportunity to become an Immigration Judge. On October 30, 1982, I was appointed an IJ by Attorney General William French Smith.
As an IJ, I rode circuit and heard cases in many locations: Baltimore, DC, Philadelphia, Pittsburg, Buffalo, Hartford. I loved the job. I enjoyed the challenge and I loved dealing with people. One concern for me was that the private bar might view me as a prosecutor in a judge’s robe. On the other hand, sometimes when I ruled in favor of the respondent, people at INS complained that I had “crossed over.” In fact, I don’t think I played favorites; I just tried to follow the law. My mantra was to be “Fair, Firm, Decisive.”
Asylumist: Are there any cases that you worked on that were particularly memorable?
JFG: I was the IJ in two Nazi war criminal cases. In the case of George Theodorovich, the trial lasted 3½ weeks. He was a Ukrainian police officer who came to the U.S. under an executive order. He denied all charges and claimed that the case against him was a Russian plot. I went to the Russian embassy to review documents, and at trial, several Survivors testified. I entered a 154-page decision (my longest decision) where he was found deportable. He appealed to the BIA. While the case was on appeal, Theodorovich fled the U.S. and went to Paraguay.
Asylumist: As an IJ, what are some common problems that you see when lawyers present cases?
JFG: Dr. Stanley Sinkford, a renowned doctor and professor at Howard Medical School, always told his medical students, “Proper Preparation Prevents Poor Performance,” meaning it is usually a lack of preparation that leads to problems. Some lawyers become too comfortable with their role; they think they can come into court and wing it. Also, proper vetting of clients and—more importantly—witnesses is very important. You cannot meet the witnesses 30 minutes before the hearing and hope everything goes well. I’ve also seen instances where the lawyer did not know the applicable law. This was a particular problem among lawyers who dabble in immigration law. A number of attorneys came before me who thought that the IJ has equity powers. They would ask the court to allow the respondent to stay in the U.S. even where there was no basis to allow him to stay. I fear that such lawyers portray this idea to their client—that the IJ can let you stay, even without a legal basis for relief.
Asylumist: How do you handle cases where you feel that the applicant may have relief, but lawyer errors and/or ineffective assistance of counsel might cause the alien to lose?
JFG: As an IJ, you almost never want to admonish an attorney in public; it is better not to be on the record or in the presence of the client. I have talked to lawyers in chambers, however. I’ve told them, “If you are not familiar with law, you need to become familiar. You have a duty to do your best for your client.” Also, if I am aware that the client appears eligible for another form of relief, I will ask why the attorney is not pursuing it. Attorneys appreciate that a Judge is willing to talk to them in private.
Asylumist: Have you had cases where your gut tells you to rule one way, but the evidence requires that you rule the opposite way? How do you deal with that?
JFG: That is when a judge feels stressed, alone, and badly about the decision he must render. Such decisions are difficult; I suppose that’s why we’re paid the big bucks. But we are judicial officers, and we are required to follow the law. It’s been said by the Supreme Court in Knauf v Shaughnessy, “Judicially we must tolerate what personally we regard as a legislative mistake,” but that is our role as an administrative judge. Your gut may tell you one thing, and you may have sympathy for the person in front of you, but unless that person satisfies the requirements for relief under the law, you cannot get to discretion, and you cannot provide equitable relief. As a Judge, we have to make these kinds of difficult decisions. It is what the law requires. Ultimately, to do justice, you have to read, know, and follow the law.
Asylumist: Over the past couple years, we’ve heard reports about the problem of IJ burnout. Was that a factor for you? How did you protect yourself?
JFG: I was constantly assessing myself, and I remained on-guard for burnout. Whenever necessary, I took a recess from court, or I took a day off. My colleagues were very supportive in this regard; it was helpful to have someone to vent to.
EOIR recently held a conference in Washington, DC—the first live conference in five years. Such events are very important. Judges are able to bond with colleagues. They brought a psychologist to discuss stress.
Asylumist: What do you think EOIR could do differently to better support IJs and make the system more efficient?
JFG: First, we need more judges and this should be done promptly. Preferably, we need candidates with a strong immigration or judicial background. More than 50% of the IJ bench is currently eligible for retirement. So we need regulations for phased retirement and we need to implement the Moving Ahead for Progress Act. This Act would permit IJs to work part time, which is something many IJs are interested in.
Also, we should institute senior status for IJs, so retired IJs could return to the bench to help with the workload. I had proposed this idea several years ago, but personnel felt it would be difficult to do. However, in the last year, EOIR has instituted a recall program, which allows Department of Justice attorneys with sufficient experience to fill temporary judgeships. This program seemingly targets BIA staff attorneys and OIL attorneys; it has not been extended to retired IJs. The Immigration Judges’ Association has been advocating for senior status as well, so retired IJs could return to help address the backlog or cover for a Judge who is absent. Imagine how efficient it would be for someone like me to step in and work for a week or a month while another IJ was on detail or leave. We have a number of IJs who are retired. They have decades of experience and are willing and able to do this.
In addition, we need to provide courts with adequate support staff, and IJs need more administrative time to keep up with motions, read case law, and stay on top of the profession. Judges also need more training—one live conference in five years is not adequate.
I would also like to see implementation of the sanction recommendation that was part of the 1996 statutes. This would give IJs more authority to sanction attorneys for misconduct. They could impose fines. Some lawyers need this type of lesson as a wakeup call. If we are to implement a sanction process, it should apply equally to private attorneys and government counsel. DHS had wanted sanctions only against the private bar, but IJs generally oppose that idea—you have to treat both sides the same.
Asylumist: The definition of a particular social group (“PSG”) has expanded pretty significantly in the last 20 years, mostly through litigation. What is your opinion of this? How do “flood gate” arguments influence IJ thinking regarding PSGs?
JFG: Since the 1980 Act came into effect, it has been litigated and litigated. I think this is healthy. PSG is the most difficult provision of the statute; other protected categories are more self-explanatory.
As to the flood gate argument, as an IJ, we cannot have that as a factor for consideration.
One area I struggled with was PSG cases involving domestic violence. We are still waiting for the government to issue regulations to help guide us. Maybe domestic violence cases would be better addressed through legislation instead of trying to fit them into a PSG, especially when we have such little guidance. Such cases are difficult because they are often very sympathetic. Perhaps it might be better to pass legislation to benefit the abused, rather than to try to figure out how to craft this group of abused individuals into a particular social group.
Asylumist: It seems fairly common for cases referred from the Asylum Office to the Court to be granted by IJs. Do you think this is a systematic problem? Might there be some sort of “fix” that could take place between EOIR and the Asylum Offices?
JFG: To do that, you would have to change the administrative asylum process, and this is a question of resources. When an asylum case is presented to the Asylum Office, there are no witnesses, there are time constraints, the applicants must bring their own interpreters (who may be good—or not). It is an imperfect system.
When the case is referred to Court, many applicants get a lawyer—and that makes a big difference. Attorneys know what evidence to include, they present witnesses, they can get a psychological evaluation. This evidence is often not presented at the Asylum Office. The system we have in Court is a more perfect system. But of course, we like the Asylum Office. Every case they grant is one less case on the Court’s docket.
If you don’t want applicants to get two bites at the apple, you can require asylum applicants who are out of status to go directly to Court.
Asylumist: Do you have any thoughts on how to reduce the backlog?
JFG: DHS could better prioritize which cases are prosecuted. We could have more pre-trial hearings. Why have a lengthy hearing if DHS won’t oppose the case in the end? There could also be more stipulations and more administrative closures. Of course, there is always the issue of Monday-morning quarterbacking. What if a person whose case is admin closed commits a crime? The government does not have the resources to prosecute all cases, but how do we know which cases to pursue? I do think if DHS had more time for stipulations, it would ultimately save time for everyone.
[…] Slavin: I had two mentors–Judge Bruce Solow and Judge John Gossart–who were both past presidents of NAIJ. They encouraged me to get involved with the […]
My Husband is from Eritrean, becuse of an authoritian leadership he left his hometown unwilling, Eritrea and Ethiopa war over a decade none stop fighting, decision made By judge gossart in 2003 was pure and unfair, is not only denied his appeal order to removed from US to Ethiopia, running from fires to human butcher in the alternative counter Ethiopia, This is not LAW absolutely not a law this is Racism and antagonism directed against humanity, God will bring every act and intentionally deed to Judgment.
Hi Jason,
Filled Asylum in November 2014., interview July 2017, my decision August 1st, 2017 and Yesterday I find out ,the they already schedule my preliminary hearing for October 4th here in Philadelphia. Jason please give me an advice what should I expect that day?,Can they give me a decision that day? ,or what is gonna happen?.
Thank you ,
Andrea.
If this is a court case, it is an initial hearing/scheduling hearing. There will be many people there like you, and you will have to enter a pleading to the Notice to Appear and then the Judge will schedule you for a trial. So there is no decision that day. If you do not have a lawyer, probably the judge will pressure you to get a lawyer and return for another scheduling hearing. It is a very good idea to get a lawyer to help you in court if you can. Take care, Jason
Hi
I apply for asylum case and I interviewed in March 2017 .I received a letter from USCIS they said your case now at immigration court.I want to know how long does it take to get an appointment with judge and what is the process.
They will send you a notice about the court date. It can take a few weeks, but it can also takes months. To check your court date, you can call the court hotline at 1-800-898-7180 and enter your Alien number. Push 2 and the system will tell you your next court date (once the date is scheduled). It will also tell you the name of your judge. Take care, Jason
Thank you so much and I will let you know when I get my appointment
Thank you so much for your answer l have one more question please is it take a long time to get interview with court
Knowing I am waiting for tow years and seven months
each judge is different – some take only a few months; others take years. Once you go to the first hearing, you will know when your final court date is. Take care, Jason
Hi jason how are you
I apply for asylum case in April 2014 and I interviewed in June 2014 after this waiting I received a letter from USCIS before tow days 2/13/2017 they said your case now at immigration court
So what is this mean after two years and seven months
Thank you so much
Sorry I forgot to tell you IT IS NYC IMMIGRATION COURT
It sounds like the asylum office is denying your case (they call it a “referral”) and sending you to Immigration Court. This means you can present your case again to a judge, and the judge will either grant your case or order you deported (if he orders you deported, you can appeal). It is a very good idea to have a lawyer in court, so I suggest you look for a lawyer to help you. If you cannot afford a lawyer, I did a posting on September 22, 2016 about how to find a free lawyer. Take care, Jason
Hello, Jason
I am planning to apply for politacal asylum but as I understand it os a long process to get it. It seems it will probably take 3 years and it will be really difficult to l7ve far from my family that long. Do you think it is a good idea
1. Apply for work permit after 6 months from my application
2. To bring my wife and son with B1 visa
Almost everyone applies for the work permit 5 months after they apply, which is the soonest you may apply. It takes another few months to actually get the permit after you apply. If you do not want to be separated from your family for years, you should try to bring them before you file for asylum (preferably, at the same time as when you come here). Once you file for asylum, it will be more difficult for them to get a visa to the US. Take care, Jason
Dear Jason
few days ago my lawyer told me that i missed finger print app, how come this happen if i did not get mail from them or the lawyer did not get notice for that? is it going to take long time to reschedule the finger print app? do you think not going to finger print first time will effect negatively on my case?
thank you
If you have the notice for the fingerprint appointment, you can attend late. It should not be a problem. If you never got a notice for fingerprints, I do not know why the lawyer thinks you missed an appointment. You can always contact the asylum office about this – you can find their contact info if you follow the link at right called Asylum Office Locator. Take care, Jason
Dear Jason
The good news that after a year of my sent asylem application I already got the receipt notice.
and now i can check my status online.
my question, is the alien number and receipt number something secret like a password? do you recommend me to signup in the uscis site? if i signup am I going to see more information?
thanks alot
I do not know of a way to check asylum case status on-line. You can check the status of other types of applications, like the EAD, but not asylum. There certainly is no harm in signing up for the USCIS website – you will be able to track your EAD application or other types of applications, and that is helpful. Take care, Jason
Hello Jason!
Thank you for your hard work and Happy New Year.
I live in Minnesota and I applied for asylum in December 2012 and no interview. Do you know what dates are schedule for an interview?
Thank you
Eliane
I think your office is Chicago – you can check the Asylum Office Scheduling Bulletin – a link is at the right. However, you will probably be interviewed at a local office, which might be slower. The only way to know is to contact Chicago and ask them (if they will answer). You can find their email address by following the link at right called Asylum Office Locator. Take care, Jason
I have never see a man devoting his time and giving a giude to people like you, keep doing you will get bless and your family
here is my question : i hvae submit my asylum case on october first week and by this time i could have get the reply for thw recepit and knowing tge date for finguer print notice but nothing
my I-94 also about to expire , what should i do to get the recepit letter , as per the web sit after 21 days i have to get the replay for the recepit
so would you advise me what to do to get . Thanks a lot wish you all the bast
I would have expected that you’d have the fingerprints by now, but sometimes it take longer than 1.5 months. Make sure that you sent the application to the correct address and that (if you used Post Office Tracking), it was received. If it was received, the first step might be to contact your local asylum office (I provide links at right under “Asylum Office Locator”) and inquire. If that does not work, you may need to hire a lawyer to help you. Good luck, Jason
Dear Jason , thanks for the value able information as usual.
I have filled an application for refugee travel document. I wrote in there that I will travel to India only and I have requested for multiple use travel document. Can I go to other countries or I should go only to the country I wrote on my application? Can I travel anywhere I want except my own country?
Thanks
The Travel Document itself has no restrictions on it, so you can go anywhere that will let you in. I have never heard of anyone having a problem, as long as they do not return to the home country. My only concern would be that USCIS might think you lied on the I-131 form because you did not list all the places you will travel. I highly doubt this would be a problem, but I suppose it is possible. Maybe you want to talk to a lawyer before you travel, just to go over any potential issues. Take care, Jason
Hi Jason,
I just want to ask, if a refugee left the USA and returned back to his country, then back to the USA with visit visa after 5 years.
What will gonna happen to his status ( because I heard that some people applied for green card and they got approved!!!!)
is that possible
Regards
Anything is possible. However, in many cases, if a refugee returns to his country, it might result in losing his status in the US. Take care, Jason
Good morning Jason I’m waiting till now interview with Chicago asylum offic 27month and till now no news did you now why Chicago asylum office stop on May about 6month only they interviewed case apply in May that’s mein no movement ?
Most likely, they are focusing on cases from the US/Mexico border. Hopefully, they will start to move soon. Good luck, Jason
Thank you Jason
Jason:
They said once request for additional evidence, the case would go different category. what is it?
That, I do not know. Sorry, Jason
Hi!Jason:
I applied for I765 application on August 10 and this is my first application.But I did’t receive anything till 75 days.I submitted request for my case,and they sent me RFE after 75 days.Normally it takes 30days to have employee authorization card.I don’t understand why it takes 75 days and request for additional evidence? I responded RFE and they said i have to wait another 60 days for decision, again why it takes so long. Is there any way i can solve this issue?
Thank you so much
Memet
It sounds like there was a problem with the EAD application, which is the reason for the RFE. It also helps explain the delay (though there are delays for almost all EAD applications these days). If you sent the response, you will hopefully get your EAD soon. I do not know anything you can do at this point. If there is a long delay after you sent your reply to the RFE, you can contact them to inquire or contact the Ombudsman (a link is at the right). Take care, Jason
Hi Jason, I applied at San Francisco office Dec 1st 2014, Interview was done January 10th 2015 and today I got my approval. So it took me less than a year to complete the whole process. I think I am one of the lucky ones. Question is how was my case different to others who are waiting for years even for interview calls. I would like to thank you for this blog, which has helped me through out this period for all my queries.
Hi,Ali! It is so amazing new! My congrats! Chi-chin!
You were lucky – the scheduling policy changed on December 26, 2014. Before that, lucky people (like you) got a quick interview; many other people fell into the backlog and they are still waiting. After December 26, 2015, cases are interviewed in the order they have been received. So you just made it under the old policy and got your interview quickly. Congrats on the win. Take care, Jason
Thanks Jason – you have been a great help, I feel so relaxed now. What is the wait times on travel documents?
Advance Parole – that might take 4 to 8 months (it is very variable); the Refugee Travel Document seems to be faster – maybe 3 to 5 months. Take care, Jason
Hi Jason,
I applied asylum in Arlington office in May 2014 and I was constantly checking your blog and Asylum scheduling bulletin board which show The Arlington office is interviewing case filled August 2013. I was expecting to get my interview sometime next year, but to my surprise, I have received my interview appointment letter this week. Do you think the asylum bulletin board is showing the wrong information? I did not even submit any inquires to the asylum office. The only thing that my lawyer did he put my name of the waiting list in case someone misses or reschedule his interview. I also applied my 2nd EAD card on September.
Hi Hassen. When did your lawyer put your name in short list notice.
He put me the short list notice before 7 months.
It sounds like your lawyer put your name on the short list. We have had a few people called from the short list recently too, and I suspect that is what happened. Good luck, Jason
Thanks jason for your help and advices . I applied in newark couple monthes ago . When I submitted I didn’t get receipt never I was very worried . After 2 month and half I get finger print reciept . I dont know whats going on in uscis . I wanna say for every body delay him reciept dont worry you will get it soon . Thanks jason again and good luck for all .
hi Jason Dzubow thanks for you help and everything
i was told if i win asylum i can bring my family such as my mom and dad
?
is that true?
Not really – You can invite them, and that might help them get a visitor’s visa, but you cannot sponsor them. The only people who you can sponsor if you win your asylum case are you minor unmarried children and your spouse. Take care, Jason
Dear Jason
Do not you think Mr. Jason that the delay in scheduling interviews in Arlington puzzling ,, ?? And that there is progress in the year 2015 and has completed the interview and waiting for the final answer while the years 2013 & 2014 waiting for ??? How do you explain that? And why Arlington office stalled in August 2013 for more than 6 months ???
I think it relates to how they distribute the workload from the US/Mexico border, but I really do not know.
Dear Jason,
Thank you very much for all the Help and guidance. i am pleased to inform you that i have been granted Asylum On Friday 30th October. i filled for my Asylum in 2013, everything went really very smooth. once again thank you very much.
Now, i want to file for my Wife who is in my home Country. i need to know the documents i need to Submit with the Form.
Please kindly guide.
Thank You
Congratulations on the win! To file for a family member, you need to submit a form I-730, available at http://www.uscis.gov. The directions on the form will guide you, and the process normally takes 6 to 9 months, but it can be longer (and, rarely, shorter). Good luck, Jason
In which office my friend you applied asylum?
Hi Susan,
i applied with the LA Office.
Thanks
Dear mr jason
Thank you so much for all advices
My question is
Can you check the status of asylum online through uscis website( receipt number start with ZLA)
Thanks
You cannot check the status of an asylum case online – you can only do that by contacting the asylum office directly. Take care, Jason
You can check your asylum case online if it is approved. It says, “Document production” You can probably confirm this by checking recently approved case.
Thank you – I never had occasion to check a case after it was approved. I will try. Take care, Jason
Thank you for reply
How about if it says thats fees were waived ?
Thanks
Ammar – Have you received approval yet? My online status also says “fees were waived.” I am not really sure what it means. Anybody knows please??
Dear Jason thanks for your continuous help.
I have applied in Arlington office in November 2014.
Do you know what month are interviewed right these days in Arlington office?
Tnahks again!!
August 2013 – You can check the link at the right for the Asylum Office Scheduling Bulletin. Take care, Jason
Great interview. Judge Gossart, wishing you the best and I hope to see you on the bench again soon!
Amen – Hi Jay, I hope all is well.
Dear sir,
My case is pending for last six months in San Francisco office. I send an email which they answered and tell me that we mailed your decision which you received within one week. My question is that if my case is reffered to immigration judge how much time required to decide this case in the court. Thanks
The time frame for court (and even among judges in the same court) varies widely. For non-detained cases, it could be anywhere from 6 months to 5 years. I will try to post a link with info on court backlogs if I can find one. Take care, Jason
Hi! I have a question about asylum, my lawyer filed an asylum case 1,5 month ago, but we did not receive any letter yet! What would be the reason of the delay?
Waiting for 1.5 months after filing is not even a delay, thus being no reason behind it.
Depending on which office you filed to, you would wait roughly 1-4 years till the interview. Getting to know your interview date would also require you to wait, and you won’t know it right after filing.
Refer to the below website for respective asylum offiecs and their wait time till the interview.
http://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/refugees-asylum/asylum/affirmative-asylum-scheduling-bulletin
Hi, my condition is the same as Daniel, I filed through lawyer asylum application to Texas, is it normal that already more than month passed and i didn’t get notice receipt yet? by law they answer in 3 weeks
Like I said, typically my client has the receipt in under 4 weeks and the fingerprint notice soon after that. Sometimes, USCIS does not send a receipt. If you do not have any receipt or fingerprint notice in a month, I expect you will get them soon. If you do not have them by 2 months, you should check with the lawyer that the case was mailed and that it was received by USCS (the lawyer should have send it by certified mail).
Dear Jason
Its already five months i didn’t get any answer (no receipt, no fingerprint notice), but the lawyer got me alien number, and now the lawyer want to file me for EAD, $380 for application!! my question ; is it strange to apply for EAD without receiving notice receipt? and is it free fee for first time applying for EAD for asylum applicant?
Thanks
The first EAD is free. You should have gotten a receipt or a fingerprint notice before now. You can apply for the EAD and see wart happens. You can also go to your local asylum office (or email them) and ask about your case – you can find their contact info if you follow the link to the right, Asylum Office Locator. I think you should ask them about the receipt and fingerprint notice. Take care, Jason
Normally, we receive a receipt in 2 to 4 weeks and the fingerprint notice a few weeks later. In some cases, we never get the receipt, just the fingerprint notice (I do not know why). If you have received nothing in 1.5 months, that seems a bit long. You may want to confirm with the lawyer that it was filed and that it was received (hopefully, the lawyer sent it by certified mail, so there is proof of delivery). Take care, Jason